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jackfinn: May 12, 2008 - 12:51 PM PST Once upon a time, I came very, very close to having the following poem (by Wallace Stevens) tattoed on my left forearm.

A Postcard from the Volcano

Children picking up our bones
Will never know that these were once
As quick as foxes on the hill;

And that in the autumn, when the grapes
Made sharp air sharper by their smell
These had a being, breathing frost;

And least will guess that with our bones
We left much more, left what still is
The look of things, left what we felt

At what we saw. The spring clouds blow
Above the shuttered mansion-house,
Beyond our gate and the windy sky

Cries out a literate despair.
We knew for long the mansion's look
And what we said of it became

A part of what it is ... Children
Still weaving budded aureoles,
Will speak our speech and never know,

Will say of the mansion that it seems
As if he that lived there left behind
A spirit storming in blank walls,

A dirty house in a gutted world,
A tatter of shadows peaked to white,
Smeared with the gold of the opulent sun.



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jackfinn: May 12, 2008 - 12:44 PM PST I can go both ways on this topic...

On the one hand, there's something to be said for "Art for art's sake." I've said this before, and I will say it again, there is a certain beauty to the unpublished poem. We need more people out there trying to make art. At the end of the day, it's a poem - not a gun - and no one is pointing it anyone, you know?

On the other hand, everyone wants to be a poet, but nobody buys poetry, reads poetry, supports poetry, etc. So how can they truly *be* a poet? I wonder how many people reading this know who Wallace Stevens is (Wordlings, by the way, Wallace Stevens is my favorite poet, besides maybe Robert Lowell). I think to make art, you have to understand the context of a culture. Because, well, art doesn't occur in a vaccuum (sp.?) and whatever new, bold innovation a writer is trying to make has already been done. And writers need to recognize that there's very little new under the sun.

I guess where I stand on this is that I would like to see more self editing. (Literally - like punctuation and spelling and stuff - and figuratively - not everything needs to be posted in its present form.) But I also think that we need to be able to talk about the work, about the art, and say smart stuff about how it can be improved. Because critical for critical's sake has been done -- think Andy Rooney, you know?

I know I'm trying to go further; I'm trying to get better at what I do. (Whether I have the talent to do so, I don't know - nobody does...) And I know I need help to get there.

So, if you're reading this, go buy a collection of poetry or a book of contemporary fiction, preferably from an indie press like Softskull or City Lights; go see a poet read; read the dead white guys, too, there's a reason they're in an anthology... most of the time; take your work seriously (and by that I mean, don't scribble some shit you think is cool when you're drunk, post it, and expect it to be the next "Howl"); and read others' work on ql you think is cool, whose forum posts you respect or whatever, and comment on it.



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The_Catalyst: May 12, 2008 - 11:26 AM PST
toru Said:
The_Catalyst Said:
Whats this "we"? most of the "crap" on this that seems like the work of 15 year old girls site IS the work of 15 year old girls.

You make it sound like everyone who picks up a pen on this site can't write. Personally I do not find that true ad moreover I do find it very offensive.

You bundled everyone up into one collective when the whole point of the site is the individual.

There are a good deal of writers on this site who do not suck, not to seem egotistical, but I'd also like to think I'm one of them.

As a writer, I understand your frustration. I also get mad when reading some people's work on here, but I keep in mind that this site has many writers in many different stages and abilities and everyones still honing their skills (as they always should be)and who am I to discourage that? I offer constructive crit when I can and I avoid commenting on the stuff I can't bare to read, cause I know somewhere on the site I'll find something amazing, and it's only a few clicks away (which is the beauty of it).

As I said before, the oversimplification in your previous statements really irked me, and it almost makes me scream "who died and and you the Czarina of poetry?", I mean seriously, who are you to tell EVERY poet on this site that they suck. It's apparent you have not read every poem on the site.

And also, who are you to set a a bar on what poetry SHOULD be. That contradicts the whole spirit of poetry itself.

First of all, it's not going to help anyone get better, and second of all it's just going to piss people off.


Cat,
You're not only misquoting me, but overreacting to something I didn't say. I did say that there is good stuff on the site, and that poetry can be written in many different ways- I underlined parts where I said those things- so that you can have a reference. Its really absurd that you think that I am professing to have all the answers to good work, or that I think I set the standard just because I said that standards do exist and some are being violated in a very large way. It is very fair to critize something if there is merit to critize- and just because I criticize something, it does not mean that I am nominating myself czar/queen it just means that I am making a point that something is off kilter. Did I make a far reaching assumption? Yes, but did I also make concessions and reply to specific forums, Yes.

Looking at this further, and the nature of this forum, if it pisses you off it might do some good. It might force you to reconsider your work, or the methods you use for evaluation. It might give you the opportunity to open up about what you like and don't like, as well as what you think is being over/under used. Just by saying these things, by saying that I've read a lot of poetry on the site and some of it is very poor quality, it opens up the opportunity for you to think about other ways to evaluate work in a public way on this site, that you may have been reluctant to do before. It opens the doors by letting someone else be the bad guy for you to actually say something of merit, and help rather than good job.

I am not merely saying that to be a poet you must do a,b and c- I am however advocating the conventions of learning to read and write imagery in a meaningful way- which includes eloquent and moving language. I'm advocating studying writing, studying poetry, and to quit pushing first drafts as completed projects worth attention. That is what I am suggesting. I am also suggesting that writing poetry is a skill- in some ways a talent that is more than simply an expression. It takes time and work to develop this skill and not every little squiggle put down on a page should be called poetry. So, am I saying that some things are not poetry, Yes. But not so explicitly to suggest that poetry cannot change or is not fluid. Its art, its a craft, an expertise. Just as I who paint little do not call myself a painter, I suggest to those who dabble in poetry to not call their stuff poetry, or themselves poets.

I've read a lot of the work on QL, there are some jems, believe me, I appreciate them. But there's also a lot of people saying look at my work, and what they have to show is crap. But- no one seems to offer constructive criticism.But rather complements to shitty, shitty work.
Sorry about flying off the handle (so to speak) kind of this open mouth insert foot kinda issue. But still, I do think you could have done this a lot better.

I agree with what Mel has said and mostly what Wordings added.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason they are complementing it is cause they like it, and not cause they just want to seems nice. Some people just don't know how to criticize things, they just know what they like and don't like.

Not to mention, as pointed out before, that not everyone on here is looking to be judged, some of them just want to vent, other just like to dabble in it. And as annoying as that can be sometimes, they are allowed.

Personally, I don't like Ebert and Roper telling me what movies are shit (because who gives a rats ass what they think anyway) and I think the same about people setting standards on poetry. Just because you as a reader came to the conclusion that a lot of the work on this site is shit, doesn't mean that it's a universal truth cause in the end who gives a shit what you think, or what I think, or what anyone else thinks? If you like to write and you do it for yourself who the hell are we to say they can't be allowed to suck at it and not still enjoy doing it. This site never claimed to be this literary hoitie - toitie yacht club.
At the same time we're nto a redneck trailer park, I understand a call for some culture, I just don't think you went baout it the right way.

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Wordlings: May 12, 2008 - 07:08 AM PST I don't think you should worry too much about the negative response you've got here. I don't think anybody really thought you were making a generalization about the entire site, or that you were actually offering the type of constructive criticism that would be obviated by you calling it shitty. My impression was you were venting. And you were hoping to point out that the emperor has no clothes, and willing to suffer the slings and arrows. Which were predictable.

That poets are on different points on the continuum, and that not all those who post poetry are even looking for crits but are just expressing themselves, doesn't mean you should shut up. I think you've done a service by pointing out the thread meant to help with poetry is in your opinion not very helpful -- so keep at it. Start a thread that is helpful and see what you can get done.

That said, who are you, some kind of expert? That poem you posted was sort of weak. There's a lot of way better poetry you could have posted as an example of good poetry. I took that whole first post at face value -- I think what you expressed there was useful and needed to be said. But remember that QL doesn't stand for "Quality Lineup" -- it's just a place where people can express themselves, like you did. Some of what they express will be callow, obviously, but they'll be given the indulgence they deserve. When those people decide they're ready for substantive crit, and begin to seek it, then good -- they've passed the first challenge and they're on their way. They may read this thread and decide it's time to go for it. They may read this thread and find there is a place they can get it. It's all good.

Oh, yeah, except that poem you posted. You should read some Wallace Stevens, now there's a poet to admire and emulate.
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toru: May 12, 2008 - 12:03 AM PST
The_Catalyst Said:
Whats this "we"? most of the "crap" on this that seems like the work of 15 year old girls site IS the work of 15 year old girls.

You make it sound like everyone who picks up a pen on this site can't write. Personally I do not find that true ad moreover I do find it very offensive.

You bundled everyone up into one collective when the whole point of the site is the individual.

There are a good deal of writers on this site who do not suck, not to seem egotistical, but I'd also like to think I'm one of them.

As a writer, I understand your frustration. I also get mad when reading some people's work on here, but I keep in mind that this site has many writers in many different stages and abilities and everyones still honing their skills (as they always should be)and who am I to discourage that? I offer constructive crit when I can and I avoid commenting on the stuff I can't bare to read, cause I know somewhere on the site I'll find something amazing, and it's only a few clicks away (which is the beauty of it).

As I said before, the oversimplification in your previous statements really irked me, and it almost makes me scream "who died and and you the Czarina of poetry?", I mean seriously, who are you to tell EVERY poet on this site that they suck. It's apparent you have not read every poem on the site.

And also, who are you to set a a bar on what poetry SHOULD be. That contradicts the whole spirit of poetry itself.

First of all, it's not going to help anyone get better, and second of all it's just going to piss people off.


Cat,
You're not only misquoting me, but overreacting to something I didn't say. I did say that there is good stuff on the site, and that poetry can be written in many different ways- I underlined parts where I said those things- so that you can have a reference. Its really absurd that you think that I am professing to have all the answers to good work, or that I think I set the standard just because I said that standards do exist and some are being violated in a very large way. It is very fair to critize something if there is merit to critize- and just because I criticize something, it does not mean that I am nominating myself czar/queen it just means that I am making a point that something is off kilter. Did I make a far reaching assumption? Yes, but did I also make concessions and reply to specific forums, Yes.

Looking at this further, and the nature of this forum, if it pisses you off it might do some good. It might force you to reconsider your work, or the methods you use for evaluation. It might give you the opportunity to open up about what you like and don't like, as well as what you think is being over/under used. Just by saying these things, by saying that I've read a lot of poetry on the site and some of it is very poor quality, it opens up the opportunity for you to think about other ways to evaluate work in a public way on this site, that you may have been reluctant to do before. It opens the doors by letting someone else be the bad guy for you to actually say something of merit, and help rather than good job.

I am not merely saying that to be a poet you must do a,b and c- I am however advocating the conventions of learning to read and write imagery in a meaningful way- which includes eloquent and moving language. I'm advocating studying writing, studying poetry, and to quit pushing first drafts as completed projects worth attention. That is what I am suggesting. I am also suggesting that writing poetry is a skill- in some ways a talent that is more than simply an expression. It takes time and work to develop this skill and not every little squiggle put down on a page should be called poetry. So, am I saying that some things are not poetry, Yes. But not so explicitly to suggest that poetry cannot change or is not fluid. Its art, its a craft, an expertise. Just as I who paint little do not call myself a painter, I suggest to those who dabble in poetry to not call their stuff poetry, or themselves poets.

I've read a lot of the work on QL, there are some jems, believe me, I appreciate them. But there's also a lot of people saying look at my work, and what they have to show is crap. But- no one seems to offer constructive criticism.But rather compliements to shitty, shitty work.
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toru: May 11, 2008 - 11:45 PM PST
Melissa Said:
When offering "constructive criticism", using the words crap, shitty, etc, won't get you far.

Also, devaluing others comments because they were positive on what you might consider "shit" work will only devalue what you have to say.

Be the change............




I'm sure some of these "shit" writers love what they do and aren't trying to do it professionally, but rather as a creative outlet and what they do makes them happy - so who the hell am I to judge.
If I am one to judge - then keep creating, and strive to be what you want to be. If they want tips, I'll give it to them - without putting down what they've done.
Constructive criticism and calling things shit and crap are two different things.[/quote]

This is a perfect reminder. I agree. It was thoughtless of me to be so careless and offensive.

And I've backed myself in a corner here, so I'm not sure how to proceed. I see your point about professionalism- that not every one expressing them self is trying to be a professional- thus their work should not be held to that calibar.

But on the same ends- I painted and wrote for a while- and have been at the butt of extreme criticsm as well as kind words, and encouraring professors. I think it all comes together, though- there are times when the work I produced was terrible and not worth the paper it was written painted on, and pissed off the people around me because- I could do better and didn't out of laziness, or lack of direction. So, there's room for both for constructive criticism, and for purging. Its painful, but sometimes we need to know where we stand.

But I guess, the difference is the level of seriousness that a person takes themselves, do they consider their work, art, poetry, or lines they write just to express themselves and feel better? Because, when you are at the point where you ask for feed back and are producing minimal quality work and you don't realize its poor quality and no one ever says anything- its probable that you won't progress.

I'm being a bit confusing here, what I'm trying to say, is that I appreciate your reminder for giving constructive feed back, as well as what constructive feed back is. Also, on the other hand I do think there is a place for blunt criticism for low quality work, when it is being pushed off as a serious endevor. But then again, one must realize place and time, and that every person expressing them self isn't striving to be a artist.
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The_Catalyst: May 11, 2008 - 09:43 PM PST EDIT
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The_Catalyst: May 11, 2008 - 09:39 PM PST Whats this "we"? most of the "crap" on this that seems like the work of 15 year old girls site IS the work of 15 year old girls.

You make it sound like everyone who picks up a pen on this site can't write. Personally I do not find that true ad moreover I do find it very offensive.

You bundled everyone up into one collective when the whole point of the site is the individual.

There are a good deal of writers on this site who do not suck, not to seem egotistical, but I'd also like to think I'm one of them.

As a writer, I understand your frustration. I also get mad when reading some people's work on here, but I keep in mind that this site has many writers in many different stages and abilities and everyones still honing their skills (as they always should be)and who am I to discourage that? I offer constructive crit when I can and I avoid commenting on the stuff I can't bare to read, cause I know somewhere on the site I'll find something amazing, and it's only a few clicks away (which is the beauty of it).

As I said before, the oversimplification in your previous statements really irked me, and it almost makes me scream "who died and and you the Czarina of poetry?", I mean seriously, who are you to tell EVERY poet on this site that they suck. It's apparent you have not read every poem on the site.

And also, who are you to set a a bar on what poetry SHOULD be. That contradicts the whole spirit of poetry itself.

First of all, it's not going to help anyone get better, and second of all it's just going to piss people off.
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Melissa: May 11, 2008 - 09:04 PM PST When offering "constructive criticism", using the words crap, shitty, etc, won't get you far.

Also, devaluing others comments because they were positive on what you might consider "shit" work will only devalue what you have to say.

Be the change...........

I'm sure some of these "shit" writers love what they do and aren't trying to do it professionally, but rather as a creative outlet and what they do makes them happy - so who the hell am I to judge.
If I am one to judge - then keep creating, and strive to be what you want to be. If they want tips, I'll give it to them - without putting down what they've done.
Constructive criticism and calling things shit and crap are two different things.
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toru: May 11, 2008 - 07:58 PM PST
crimsonladybug Said:
What a crock of elitest crap! My creative writing professor used to tell people in our poetry class that they hadn't written poetry; that their words were nothing more than pornography and I thought he was wrong for saying it then. I see nothing spectacularly poetic about what you have chosen to use as an example of "this is real poetry - write like this." Especially above so many other choices from the canon. Also, this poem is one long phrase with no pauses, no breaks, and therefore no indications where the poet wants the emphasis placed, as poetry is meant to be read aloud and this is definitely NOT something I would want to read aloud. I simply cannot hold my breath that long.

While poetry has some guidelines - rhythmic flow, lyricism, meter - it is also an expressive art form and I can not justify telling anyone that they have not written poetry if they have successfully expressed what they set out to express. You may offer that their subject matter is more suited to prose, you may critique their meter or word choice but to say what they have written is not poetry is elitest and pretentious.


I understand your frustration with the poem I cited. To be fair though, its not in its orignal form posted here. I urge you to check out the orginal form of this poem- "A poem to shout into the ruins". It reads aloud very well. The version you are reading is an except, that is, a condensed form which does not allow for breaks. As soon as I can find my copy, I'll post it. But it'll take me a week, as I have finals to contend with. Once you see the full verison, I'm sure you'd also share my wonder with it.

While I don't think everyone should write in the same way, or in a prescribed form, I do think that you can definately say something is crappy and unpoetic. Throwing around elitism as an insult to mock someone when they call out crap, or to one who is willing to critique work is as reactionary as the insult you are prescribing.

I am not merely saying that to be a poet you must do a,b and c- I am however advocating the conventions of learning to read and write imagery in a meaningful way- which includes eloquent and moving language. I'm advocating studying writing, studying poetry, and to quit pushing first drafts as completed projects worth attention. That is what I am suggesting. I am also suggesting that writing poetry is a skill- in some ways a talent that is more than simply an expression. It takes time and work to develop this skill and not every little squiggle put down on a page should be called poetry. So, am I saying that some things are not poetry, Yes. But not so explicitly to suggest that poetry cannot change or is not fluid. Its art, its a craft, an expertise. Just as I who paint little do not call myself a painter, I suggest to those who dabble in poetry to not call their stuff poetry, or themselves poets.

I've read a lot of the work on QL, there are some jems, believe me, I appreciate them. But there's also a lot of people saying look at my work, and what they have to show is crap. But- no one seems to offer constructive criticism.But rather compliements to shitty, shitty work.

I'd also suggest, that poetry on the vast level is self-gratifying, but for it to be truly a great piece of work, it must trancend the artist, and should on some level be able to be interepreted across experiences, maybe not all, but at least more than one.

I cannot speak for your professor, or about your comparision of me to him/her. But I can say that it is not elitist to suggest that standards do exist, or that quality work exists. My friend, that is not elitism, that is critical thought and evaluation.

And art takes critics. True craft takes revisions.
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crimsonladybug: May 11, 2008 - 07:14 PM PST What a crock of elitest crap! My creative writing professor used to tell people in our poetry class that they hadn't written poetry; that their words were nothing more than pornography and I thought he was wrong for saying it then. I see nothing spectacularly poetic about what you have chosen to use as an example of "this is real poetry - write like this." Especially above so many other choices from the canon. Also, this poem is one long phrase with no pauses, no breaks, and therefore no indications where the poet wants the emphasis placed, as poetry is meant to be read aloud and this is definitely NOT something I would want to read aloud. I simply cannot hold my breath that long.

While poetry has some guidelines - rhythmic flow, lyricism, meter - it is also an expressive art form and I can not justify telling anyone that they have not written poetry if they have successfully expressed what they set out to express. You may offer that their subject matter is more suited to prose, you may critique their meter or word choice but to say what they have written is not poetry is elitest and pretentious.
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BLA: May 11, 2008 - 02:47 PM PST
toru Said:
BLA Said:
This thread is designed to help us work on our poetry.


Yes, I've checked it out, but there's no substanstive criticism. Or many poems worth any attention. And this is why I started this thread. Many of the posts on that thread are handing out compliements where kind words do not belong. Most of it is crap and someone needs to come along and say, you can do better, but you need to study and push yourself. What you have posted is really bad- and even yourself should not take it seriously.

Writing doesn't improve by saying good job. Maybe its because I live in a community of writers and my standards are extremely high- but most of the stuff on this page would be ripped to shreds in any poetry workshop not taught for profit.

To teach yourselves to write, you must take a deep look at form, at history, at movement and established thought. What is being called poetry is a sham, poetry should not be a blanket statement for any half assed musings. And by half asssed- I mean written by anyone who doesn't take the time to really understand poetry, who hasn't read more than five books on poetry- who hasn't studied forms as they have changed through movments and centuries.

To make a forum on poetry and suggest that it will help you get better, you must really explore technique, you must be willing to criticize, and deconstruct things. Perhaps starting a new forum where you say, lets look at this piece of work, and talk about why we like it, what it means....then talk about one of your pieces and compare- would work better than just posting your musings and calling it poetry.


I agree, but as I attempted to start something, it didnt pick up. If you want to rip a piece of mine appart, by all means do so.
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Wordlings: May 10, 2008 - 10:30 PM PST Generally, I try and make allowances for juvenalia. I think someone dedicated to real poetry will probably find what they need to find on their own and work out their skills by writing poem after poem after poem. Which is really the best way to get better...no workshop will teach you how to discover your unique voice and power. They just teach you how to conform to the notions of the group; usually a bunch of amateurs or dilettantes.

I appreciate your frustration, though. Creative people should be impetuous and angry and restless, always striving for improvement. Fighting and getting bloody. There's nothing really nice about the process, if it's real. It's a constant struggle. But, of course, it's totally worth it.

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toru: May 10, 2008 - 09:42 PM PST
BLA Said:
This thread is designed to help us work on our poetry.


Yes, I've checked it out, but there's no substanstive criticism. Or many poems worth any attention. And this is why I started this thread. Many of the posts on that thread are handing out compliements where kind words do not belong. Most of it is crap and someone needs to come along and say, you can do better, but you need to study and push yourself. What you have posted is really bad- and even yourself should not take it seriously.

Writing doesn't improve by saying good job. Maybe its because I live in a community of writers and my standards are extremely high- but most of the stuff on this page would be ripped to shreds in any poetry workshop not taught for profit.

To teach yourselves to write, you must take a deep look at form, at history, at movement and established thought. What is being called poetry is a sham, poetry should not be a blanket statement for any half assed musings. And by half asssed- I mean written by anyone who doesn't take the time to really understand poetry, who hasn't read more than five books on poetry- who hasn't studied forms as they have changed through movments and centuries.

To make a forum on poetry and suggest that it will help you get better, you must really explore technique, you must be willing to criticize, and deconstruct things. Perhaps starting a new forum where you say, lets look at this piece of work, and talk about why we like it, what it means....then talk about one of your pieces and compare- would work better than just posting your musings and calling it poetry.
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BLA: May 10, 2008 - 09:21 PM PST This thread is designed to help us work on our poetry.
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toru: May 10, 2008 - 07:06 PM PST Dear Quarterlife,
I have read a lot of our poetry and we need to work a bit harder before we show everyone our stuff. We write like fourteen year old girls. We think depressive rants are interesting and poetic. We think our diatribes on immaturity are the rungs of inner peace. We are failing, miserably. Poetry is a fine art and we need to lay sacrifices under your alters dear muse. And maybe some blood, sweat and tears under your crushing foot. Back to the basics. Lets go.

_______________________________________________________________________________________
I've probaly offended everyone here. But well, we need to do some purging of our 'work' and consider, training our minds to pay attention to poetry worth reading. Here's a few links to amazing poets that were published and whose work is worth reading.

SO, here's an except of Louis Aragon's "A poem to shout into the ruins"
I can't find a complete on line version, but people, this is poetry. Here's where you can find it translated: http://www.ecampus.com/bk_detail.asp?isbn=0520072278 in a book that you need to own if you call yourself a poet.

here's an excerpt

Let's spit the two of us let's spit
On what we loved
On what we loved the two of us
Yes because this poem the two of us
Is a waltz tune and I imagine
What is dark and incomparable passing between us
Like a dialogue of mirrors abandoned
In a baggage-claim somewhere say Foligno
Or Bourboule in the Auvergne
Certain names are charged with a distant thunder
Yes let's spit the two of us on these immense landscapes
Where little rented cars cruise by
Yes because something must still
Some thing
Reconcile us yes let's spit
The two of us it's a waltz
A kinf of convenient sob
Let's spit let's spit tiny automobiles
Let's spit that's an order
A waltz of mirrors
A dialogue in the void
Listen to these immense landscapes where the wind
Cries over what we loved
One of them is a horse leaning its elbow on the earth
The other a deadman shaking out linen the other
The trail of your footprints I remember a deserted village
On the shoulder of a scorched mountain
I remember your shoulder
I remember your elbow your linen your footprints
I remember a town where there was no horse
I remember your look which scorched
My deserted heart a dead Mazeppa whom a horse
Carries away like that day on the mountain
Drunkenness sped my run through the martyred oaks
Which bled prophetically while day
Light fell mute over the blue trucks
I remember so many things
So many evenings rooms walks rages
So many stops in worthless places
Where in spite of everything the spirit of mystery rose up
Like the cry of a blind child in a remote train depot

 
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